GENERAL CHAT » RELIGION
While it could be assumed that works would come out of faith, that doesn't nessasarilly happen, it still would require works. And just believing isn't enough, what about Baptism, in 1 Peter it says "Baptism now saves you" Just looking a a couple verses that say you need to believe to be saved doesn't mean that that is all there is too it. and this is evident if you look at scripture as a whole, and not just nitpicked verses.
Actually I would like to point out that the "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me" wasn't Jesus feeling abandoned, That is the first line of Psalm 22 which is a prophetic psalm foretelling the crucifixion and actually has a happy ending, it is almost saying that this is not just a horrible crucifixion, but a rebirth of sorts that has another part or the story- ressurection.
Which is pretty cool!
I didn't say that Jesus felt abandoned; I said that was His way of expressing His taking every death penalty there ever was and ever will be on His shoulders, before rising again and making that eternal "happy ending" available to all of us.
Also, I was not taking those verses out of context, just using some of them as reference to encourage others to read the full passages. I could have written a much longer composition using several full passages, citations, and cross-references, but I doubt many people would have taken the time to read it, considering it would probably resemble a short novel (I'm longwinded by nature )
But you must see the overwhelming amount of verses about needing more than just faith alone?
and I wasn't saying that you said he was abandoned, I was just pointing out a cool little thing Jesus did there that most people don't realize.
I don't see how they contradict scriptures. Maybe they contradict various interpretations of scriptures, but who is to say other than God what the scriptures truly mean. I know many people who are born again Christians, and although we have a reputation for being bible bashers, we really aren't. I don't understand the point in confession from a Catholic stance. Why can only priests who are only humans be our go between for forgiveness from God. Surely we can all pray whenever, wherever (almost going into Shakira, must resist) to God for forgiveness and repent for out sins if we truly mean it without having to attend confession? please enlighten me..
I think you, like others, may be confusing faith and trust, which are similar but not totally synonymous. I even use the word "faith" sometimes incorrectly. Faith is belief in that which you know to be true, even if sometimes you can't see it; trust is knowing beyond a doubt someone's love, loyalty, and promises will never change, and is a big part of love and relationships. Trust is the main thing you need to be saved; you need to trust Jesus will wipe your sins away when you humbly ask Him to, and that you will be with him. Though you do need to be a witness and good example of Christianity (works being part of that), you cannot get to heaven without complete trust and relationship with God, no matter how many works you do. This is another area where I think common sense comes into play; if there were any way, no matter how slight, to get to heaven through our own actions, there would be no need for God to have sacrificed His Son at all.
Gromit's Little Bro,
You would have to ask a Catholic how they come to interpret some of the scripture as saying even after sacrifice, priests are still needed as go-betweens to God. I'm not fully sure how they get that, myself. To my way of thinking, if we couldn't fully pray to God on our own, how could we have a personal relationship with Him?
This does not mean, of course, that you can't ask others to pray for you or with you when you need help; sometimes marvelous blessings can come from many Christians meeting and praying together, such as when the believers in ancient times prayed for Peter and God used an angel to get him out of prison. (See Acts 12)
I worded that wrong, it doesn't contradict scripture, but it makes salvation seem like all you have to do is just believe in Jesus and you are automatically saved, and that you don't have to do anything else or you can never lose your salvation.
And Confession is commanded by Christ. The preist isn't going between us and God, but he excersing the power of God bestowed upon the apostles who were the first bishops who have direct succession to every Catholic Bishop today.
"As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23).
That is Jesus speaking to the apostles, just the apostles, true we should forgive those who trespass against us, but we cannot forgive sins in the eyes of God, or forgive those sins that are not against us. But in confessing to a priest you are confessing to a priest who has been given the power to forgive by the Jesus and through the Holy Spirit you are forgiven, not by the power of the priest.
Confession is only "Nessecary" for serious sins called "mortal" sin, "venial" sins can be forgiven through prayer to God and yes, we should all pray whenever, wherever to God for forgiveness. It is hard to explain, but there are smarter people than me who can explain it better, I can just trust them.
priests arent go "betweens" they are go "to's" we arent going to a priest to ask us for God to be forgiven, we are going to a priest to be forgiven by the power of God.
Any other Catholics here that could help me explain better, or even Anglicans they are pretty close to us.
Iantimothy, I'm sorry if my theology offended you, or if you thought I wasn't specific enough. I know of some people, who think good works are the Only way to get to heaven. Like, If you don't do enough, you're going to " The Bad Place". Maybe you didn't read what I said all the way through. I know about that verse in James about the good works. Of course if you are a Christian, you will do good works out of your love for Christ and your gratefulness for his sacrifice. I wasn't saying good works are not important or that you shouldn't do them. I was just trying to witness/explain to people and I usally try to keep it simple to start. I didn't want people getting confused and thinking that you have to do a certain amount of good works to be saved. There are certain religions that think you have to do "x" amounts of good works a day to be saved. We as humans can never work our way to salvation. But of course we do good works if we are Christians. I was just saying we are still human and people mess up somtimes, so you shouldn't say they're not saved if they're not perfect. Like, I said, I was emphisizing that you have to admit you are a sinner and ask Jesus into your life, because I didn't want anyone to think that all you had to do to be saved were good works. Perhaps I didn't make that clear. And as to what you said about never losing your salvation, yes I do beleive in " Once saved always saved" however, if there is someone who says, " I'm a Christian" but never follows Gods commands, I don't think that they lose their salvation, I would just have my doubts as to whether they really accepted Jesus in the first place, because it does say in the Bible that if you really love Jesus, you'll keep his commands But, I believe once you do, you are saved. I wasn't saying good works are not important, They are the testament to our faith. Faith and works go hand in hand. I'm sorry if I caused confusion or offended. Oh, and Thanks Emmyred for joining the discussion. You are better at explaining than me, but she is right, What she wrote earlier is what I meant. ( It was like four o'clock in the morning when I wrote, so I maybe wasn't as clear as I should have been.)
Ohhn right I see that, but I don't understand that when God is forgiving, a mortal sin must be confessed at confession. Does this also mean that priests can retain sins of murderers, and if so, how do they know if they are doing the right thing by retaining them? I always believe that God could forgive any sin if you are truly sorry, even if you don't confess it at a confession. For example, say you are on your deathbed, (and yes, I do know about last rites, but let's pretend you've wound up in a Muslim country, for example, and you're dying and there are no priests available) could you pray to God for forgiveness for a mortal sin, and still be forgiven despite not having a priest confession?
These are my beliefs on "mortal sins", or "once saved, always saved"; when Jesus died, He said "It is finished". FINISHED. Nothing more needs to be done; it's OVER. If there were any way the devil could take back followers of Christ AFTER they accepted His gift of salvation, that would make "It is finished" a lie. God does not lie. Once one is a child of God, how can anything, including the devil (for sin is of the devil) take you away from Him, if he is all-powerful? True, one still needs to admit one is a sinner, and ask forgiveness when one strays, because even Christians are human and are going to answer to God on judgement day. But to say the devil can take you back and condemn you do eternal death AFTER Jesus has saved you is to give the devil WAY more credit than he is due. For example, look at Job; the devil had to ask God's permission before he tested him. And If he has to ask permission just to mess around with one person, how in the world can one expect him to retake control of sinners after they have become Children of God, and how can one expect a human being, who has even less power than the devil, to be able to do something that makes God no longer in control of his life? Once one has truly surrendered to God, and made that choice truly and honestly in his heart, it is FINISHED. And that's the beauty of the whole concept of Salvation. By the logic I have just advanced, it would appear the only "mortal sin" anyone really can commit is refusing to accept God in the first place, or accepting by word of mouth only and not truly meaning it in their heart of hearts.
I aplologize if I have offended anyone ; that was not my intention at all. However, I still believe that the whole "mortal sin" thing seems to contradict the very essence of God being All-powerful. God gave us common sense and logic to show how He has ordered the world so perfectly; that's why I mention it so much in my arguments; I am not trying to say that anyone on here isn't using it or that anyone on here is stupid, because I don't think that at all. Some of you, by your typing, seem to be very intellegent indeed, which is why I think you'll appreciate logical arguments.
A lot of that makes sense, But if we are "saved" and then we commit a serious sin then we are no longer "saved" Hebrews: 26-27 says "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."
That seems pretty clear. also in Ezekial, might be even clearer.
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."
What if someone when they are 15 years old has a conversion and is "saved" he wholehardetly believes in Jesus and knows from that point on he is going to heaven.
20 years later he becomes an athiest, kills someone, robs a church, then crashes his car in a police chase unrepented. Is he going to heaven?
Gromits little bro you are pretty close!!
The reason you should confess is because it shows repentance. Technically there is something called perfect contrition where you are sorry for your sins because they offend God, and not out of fear of Gehena (we can't say the bad place in english, so Gehena is that in Hebrew) But without confessing there is now way to truly know if you have perfect contrition without confessing, so in theory it is possbile, but there is no assurance, we can't base our salvation on whether we FEEL repentant.
The only reason a priest can retain a sin is if a person is unrepentant.
say there was a murderer and he goes into confession he says "father forgive me, i killed 3 people, but I am going to kill 3 more again tomorrow" then the priest should not absolve him because he is not sorry because he plans
And you are spot on about how you could be forgiven, on your deathbed. Your example is perfect. I can't remember the verse right now but it says something like "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath"
this isn't dealing with the sabbath but it is the same concept, God is not bound by the sacraments, we are, but God is not. That is called confession of desire, where if you could you would, so God understands that, that would give a person perfect contrition.
There is also the same thing with baptism of desire, where someone may want to become baptized, but have no means to do so, it would count.
The devil knows the truth; he also knows full well who God is and what all He has done, but he is not and will not be saved because he refuses to accept God's authority and still tries to get out for his own ends even though he's already technically lost since the Resurrection. You can have complete knowledge of the truth, as you said, but that does not mean you have a personal relationship with God. Furthermore, a person can be righteous (behave well and even in a godly manner) but NOT BE SAVED; it does happen quite a lot. I personally know some people who are not Christians and need witnessing to still, but behave almost as good as one. But they are lacking in true trust, and that's the key here. The verses aren't necessarily talking about SAVED people (especially not the Old Testament passages), but people who know what's right, and may even be good, but REFUSE TO ACCEPT TRUE SALVATION. It is talking about those who have heard the truth but DO NOT FULLY RECIEVE IT, continuing in sin unashamedly.
To recap, being righteous and knowing the truth does not save you; KNOWING GOD PERSONALLY, AND SUBSEQUENTLY KEEPING HIS COMMANDS does. Therefore, in my belief, these verses don't actually give a true basis for assuming there is any way to be "unsaved" after you have surrendered to God. They are only confirming the truth that merely being good, or knowing of the truth, is not enough.
but if you said the guy in that little story wasn't saved then you admit that you can lose salvation.
I would say that you need to be righteous and good to get to heaven, you may have a PhD in Theology and know everything about God, but you are a terrible person. then will he be saved?
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life"
I didn't mention a little man in a story anywhere, and I didn't say you can lose salvation, either. I'm saying verses like the ones you referenced are talking about those who know what is good but ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT TRULY SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE. Yes, you do need to strive to be righteous when you are a Christian, but if you are just good by itself, and not in a personal relationship with God, you are not saved IN THE FIRST PLACE.
For instance, many other religions believe in multiple gods, or that men themselves have the power to be dieties. Followers of those religions may be just as "righteous" and just as "good" as Christians as far as behaviour goes, and do massive amounts of good deeds, but they are not in a relationship with the one true God and are thusly still lost. The Bible does not actually say anywhere that I know of that those WHO HAVE BEEN FULLY REDEEMED BY CHRIST'S SALVATION can lose it; verses like those you referenced are referring to BEHAVIOR, not ETERNAL SPIRITUAL CONDITION. Furthermore, the Bible was not originally written in english, so the words we translate to mean "Righteous" may not necessarily be the same in all places and we can't assume it means redeemed or saved. Besides, obviously someone who behaves wickedly was not really righteous in the first place, but only claiming to be; that's another thing where logic comes into play.
I still stick to the belief that once you are redeemed, it's a slight to the all-powerful aspect of God to say that the devil can still triumph afterwards. No offense meant to anybody; just trying to explain my stance.
But what if you are TRULY saved and then you commit a horrible sin and die unrepentant? what happens then?
I've actually been asked this before, and this is my answer.
For one thing, the horribleness of sin, or degrees of sin, are a man-made institution. The Bible says God doesn't look upon sin as a whole, and that all sin is repellent to Him, so technically there's no such thing as a sin that's actually more or less horrible than another. Sin is sin - a fib is just as bad as a murder in God's eyes. That's why the Bible says "ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD". Humans sin, period, even after conversion; we aren't dieties so we aren't perfect, and thusly, we should all, by rules of scriptural justice, be condemned to death. That's what Jesus fixed when He took our sins upon himself; he paid the wages of sin for us, and if we truly accept that, we are saved.
For example, Sometimes even devout Christians commit sins of pride, arrogance, vanity, fibbing, insulting others, and so on; it's all the same in God's eyes, it's a sin, even so much as a murder. Some Christians (witness the spanish inquisition) even beilieve murder is justified. The thing is, it's all just as bad as the other. We are all going to answer to God for it, and our reward in heaven will depend on such matters. Now, if you were unrepentant in the first place, then you didn't surrender in the first place and thusly weren't saved. One might also call into question whether someone truly understood in the first place if they aren't sorry for a sin afterwards, but that's between them and God. But, if you were truly saved (again, a matter of the heart between you and God), but told a lie to someone without thinking it was wrong, that doesn't necessarily mean you're condemned; it means you are still a weak human being (aren't we all?). And If a Christian who fibs isn't going to lose his salvation, a Christian who commits a sexual crime or a murder isn't going to either, because it's all sin and it's all the same; they'll just have to answer to God for it on judgement day. That's always been my understanding of how it works.
1 John 5:16-17 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."
So john makes sure there is a different between a sin that "does not lead to death" and a "sin that does lead to death." So there are sins that are more serious than others.
The thing is, like Jonah with the Ninevites, we all want vengeance in a way. We don't want to see someone who did something wrong to not pay for it, because it offends our human sense of justice. That's why we don't want to believe someone who did something we consider terrible has a shot at salvation; it's human nature to just want to see them punished and have the satisfaction of watching from the outside and saying "I wouldn't do that!". Even doing that, however, is a sin of arrogance. Besides, Vengeance is God's, not man's, and if He chooses to forgive we should learn from His example.
And of course there is a sin that leads to death - it's refusing to accept Salvation! But if a Christian sins, it merely affects how close they are personally to God and their reward in heaven; it doesn't condemn them to ETERNAL death. However, all wrongdoing is sin, still, just like I said. Remember, you need CONTEXT; John is talking to fellow Christians there, or at least those who are claiming to be. Also, we would need to know what type of death the original Greek or Hebrew is referring to before we make a full statement about this verse; he may be talking about sins that by the laws of that land lead to physical death, not spiritual. Even if he isn't, though, it still seems to me he's referring to the sin of continuing in sin and not surrendering all to God (and thusly becoming a Christian) because that's the only one that really makes sense here.
i looked it up, the greek in that verse is refering to spiritual death and john is indeed writing to a christian community, so these people are as you say "saved" so he is making a deliniation between big sins and little sin of people who are real christians.
guys PLEASE! im not gonna read all of this! i beg of you to write less
I've found this really interesting, learning about other beliefs and 'rituals' (yeah, I know rituals isn't the right word to use, but it's 3 a.m. here and I'm not really sure how I wound up here...). It's really weird to see how people have utterly different interpretations of the Bible. I believe that once saved always saved, as long as you are repentant for what you do.
I believe murder could be justified in extreme circumstances e.g. To save the lives of many others, like if there was a killing spree, I could justify someone murdering the murderer to stop more bloodshed. Although I do think you would still need to repent.
Oh... Wow! I just scrolled up the page. Emmy, you and I should write a book!
I hope none of this has come off in an imposing or malicious way, just sharing beliefs.
I really enjoy doing this though, just a bit of friendly debate.
Emmy I think at this point we can agree to disagree.
I think though we have a lot that we disagree about, but when it gets to many core beliefs i have a feeling we are quite similar.
I think it is good to see someone with any kind faith in this vry secular society, so it is refreshing.
Fun debating, no hard feelings I hope.
Vade In pacem Dei
Emmyred actually writes books so that's why she is so eloquent.
That is true to a point; I do write novel-length stories, but I haven't made as much headway as I'd like in publishing them because I am inexperienced in such matters and don't know anyone personally who is.
Thanks for your compliments; I wasn't insulted or offended at all and I'm glad to see you weren't either.
Sorry my debate with Ian got out of hand. If I have a discussion of this kind with anyone else in the future, I'll move it to another forum spot.
This is a great thread, very informative.
Good show, emmyred18! That's the kind of stuff I was looking for! You certainly don't worry about walking on eggshells! Great witnessing! Do you and LoveShaun19 study apologetics or something? You guys are amazing!
well im very glad people r enjoying this treat i never thought i had so much replies on a threat. thanks oh and i also like to write stories emmy! i really wanna know how do you get to publish a book. if you could please tell me, i wiil be very greatful please. you can even tell me how you write your stories and how you share them. please.
:wallace4thanks for writing less)
that didnt come out right
i think u just find out on the internet where a publisher is and post a copy of ur book 2 them (as far as i know)
So, This is for my buddy Mk7, do you see this? Can we continue talking on here?
so your gonna ignore me in my plead for held emmyred? or you just dont have any tips for me
Hi love shaun. mk7 here!
HI! So, I wanted to ask you did you ever decide what you beleive?
No not really. I believe that if their is a heaven, it doesnt segregate against beliefs. I think that it depends on what you did on your life and whether it was good or bad.
I mean no offense ( I just try to get that out of the way to start), How did you come to that conclusion? Are you still uneasy about it like you said earlier?
I just think that if, if your veiw is correct, and Jesus not only existed but was the Messiah, dont you think they would tell us, now in the 21st Century that that is the one true religion and every thing else is fake, rather than show up 2,000 years ago and leave it to the history books? My dads a catholic and my Grams a Super-Catholic (to the rescue!! she goes to church EVERY day. One time when I was at Church with my dad, the preist told this story:
(A group of souls waiting at heavens gate past the gate is a white hallway lined w/ numbered doors. Happy Partying sounds can be heard.)
Jesus: Hi there, what religion are you?
Jesus: O.K go strait on through to room 8
(soul # 1 goes in)
Jesus: Next! Hi! What religion are you?
Soul # 2: Jewish
Jesus: O.K room # 10. Your going to want to tiptoe past room 8. Thats where the Christians, Catholics, Protestants and Methodists (other Christian sects etc) are.They sort of believe that their the only ones allowed here! lol, I was a Jew even!
Soul #2: O.K thanks!
(Tiptoes down the Hallway)
Jesus was kind of a Jew because he couldn't be a Christian, the new testament hadn't happened. He hadn't died yet, there was only Judaism he could be.
The Preist explained that the moral of the story was that even though not everyone believes the same thing, heaven is real as is god (I dont know about that part) and all that matters is your good behaivior in life, so Jews, Muslims, even athiests can go to heaven as long as they were well behaved while they were alive.
Well, I don't want to make anyone mad, but, if you want to be saved, you have to give your life to Christ and admit you're as inner, and beleive that Jesus is God and that he died and rose again. That's from the Bible and that is God's own Word. Your good behavior is part of your being a Christian, ( BTW. You're not born Christian, that's something you decide), but it is not the way to salvation.
About Jesus being a Jew yes, he was born a human jew ( As in nationality), but he was actually God, and if you read the Bible, He actually disagrees with and replaces the Jewish teachings. To me,the "different roads to the same place" or Everyone's in" theroy dosen't make sense because if everything is true where is the definition of truth?
Mk7 the Catholic Church has had so many miracle and apparitions, for the last 2000 years, Jesus didn't just leave it to the history books. And we also have the Eucharist, which is truly Jesus.
what mk7 is describing, is something called invincable ignorance. The Catholic Church states that if someone does is truly ignorant of the truth(Jesus), then based on the amount of grace he has recieved, and how he has reacted to that grace then he can indeed go to heaven, but it is not a sure thing, it is not saying that every muslim, every Jew, every hindu, and even every athiest go to heaven, but it is a possibility.
"If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father."
They only sinned when they rejected him, but if they had no knowledge than they could not have sinned.
and loveshaun, he didn't replace Jewish teachings he fulfilled Jewish teachings as well as practices.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Sorry Iantimothy, I missworded that bit about the Jewish laws again. Your right about him fulfilling the prophecies. What I meant to say is that He took away some of the practices that the Jewish thought necessary before. Animal Sacrifice, not eating certain animals and things like that. Also what some Jews beleive about Jesus today is not in accordance with what is said in the Bible. That is what I meant by he disagreed. Sorry that was an error of wording on my part.
We need someone Jewish on here to help out. Everyone so far is either some form of christian (including catholic, methodist... and whatever puppylove is ... what section of religion do you count yourself as? Just Curious.)agnostic, or atheist, so I think we need someone to clear up that aspect of the debate
Like I said in another thread, I respect everyones religion, unless it is outlandish like devil worship or human sacrifice.
In your free time, if anyone watches glee, watch the episode where Kurt admits he's an atheist. I love how at the end, they dont let their differences tear them apart, and they dont try to change Kurt. In the words of Brittany : So god is an evil dwarf?
Thats from the episode. For those of you who dont watch, Brittany is the stupid cheerleader, so this isnt meant to be offensive.
You right we should respect everyone, but some religions are wrong. Like, we should respect the person, but I don't beleive that every religion is the way to heaven. I beleive that there is only one way;through Christ.
it is not really respecting them properly to say that they r wrong and u r right,
u may say that u do not hav the same beliefs but just because u don't believe it u shouldn't just state that it's wrong
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